Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi Programme
Live TV Interview with Imam Muhammad Irfan Chisti
Ummah Channel TV
INTERVIEWER: This is a very special tribute to Jalaluddin Rumi (q). Before the break you saw something very special and rather unique. [whirling] We are very honored and delighted to have in our studios a very renowned and honorable guest who has been on this show before, a noble and most respectable shaykh, Mawlana Shaykh Hisham Kabbani. Thank you very much for taking time out of your very busy schedule.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Thank you for inviting me.
INTERVIEWER: Before we begin, I want to take a moment to thank brother Archad Yaqoob, who brought in the wonderful method of dhikr done by Jalaluddin Rumi, and I also give thanks to the whole team with brother Yaqoob, Imran Ahmad, Shabbir Sahib and Shiham Sahib, and Abdurrahman Ismaeel... Thank you for coming to the studios to provide such a wonderful spiritual experience. I want to ask you, are you okay? How do you keep stable, to keep yourself from falling? How do you do that?
ARCHAD: I’m okay; I’m a little tired. I’m asked this all over in many places, and it is due to stabilizing connection to Shaykh Hisham and to Mawlana Shaykh Nazim that keeps us standing. There is no other explanation. I’m waiting for the shaykh’s explanation. These are divine people; it is due to divine connection, through divine connection and nusra and grace of those who are already connected to Allah (swt).
INTERVIEWER: As you were saying, it is the divine connection and help from those already connected. Thank you for coming into the studio this afternoon. As I said, we are very honored to have in our studios a renowned shaykh in his own right, Mawlana Shaykh Hisham Kabbani. I know many questions that viewers have in mind, that have not had that experience, which I know by the emails coming in through back office, start with that method of dhikr. As we know, dhikr is a very important aspect of life for a Sufi, but this particular type of dhikr, this very special method of whirling, can you shed some light on this?
SHAYKH HISHAM: You are asking something that needs lot of explanation and what I am going to say is like drop of the ocean to prepare the viewers to its reality. First of all, they must have faith. That means believing in ghayb, the Unseen. When you are going to use your mind, too many doubts come. When Prophet came with his message, he first taught people to say, laa ilaaha illa-Llah, to bring this message that there is God, not those statues. But the major Islamic belief is imaan bil-ghayb, belief in the Unseen. You need faith, especially our viewers who are Muslim, not only rationalization through your mind.
You are speaking of movement. Can you show anything in the universe that is not in motion? Everything is in constant motion. Who made the moon to move around Earth without fuel? And who made Earth and the moon to move around sun without fuel? And who made Earth to move around itself without fuel? And we don’t need to go further, but the whole universe is in motion. So we see today that all universes, every galaxy of 80 billion stars, each one is moving in the speed of light in a vacuum. They are surprised that we don’t know where we are moving. This is not from me, it is Quantum Physics! So the movement is in everything. Allah created everything to show the reality that either it is movement in Allah's love or movement in dunya love, so choose whatever you want. That is why it is very important to ask ourselves why is our heart pumping by itself? You know the speed of blood in the body is 40 MPH. It has speed like a car moving. At 40 mph the blood is circulating. That is Allah (swt)'s secret He put in people.
So when Sayyidina Jalaluddin Rumi (q) began dhikrullah, when you do dhikrullah, satisfaction enters your heart. There are more than 104 ayaah about the heart, and more than 17 ayaah about sadr, the chest. So you have to pull out knowledge from these ayaat. Sayyidina Jalaluddin Rumi when doing dhikr, not like our dhikr mixed with dunya issues; when they make dhikr it is on the greatness of Allah, Creator of the Heavens, yatafakaroona fi 's-samawaati wa 'l-ard. Their soul is there, but their concentration is not with us. Prophet (s) said to contemplate or reflect, tafakkur, for one hour is better than 70 years of worship! So when they go into that word, the Beautiful Name of Allah, that tajalli, manifestation, will dress them. So when they say, la ilaaha illa-Llah, they feel the oneness of Allah (swt) dressing them, not like us, on our tongue only. They are in that purity and trance, and at that moment they don’t feel themselves anymore, they are not there.
INTERVIEWER: Thank you for mentioning that. I know many times you look closely into the eyes of a whirler, you realize he is not physically there. He is in state of absolute focus. That is one question that we have and I ask you to elaborate, that we see before they begin movement they bow down and take acceptance from the shaykh before they begin. That's something people are uncomfortable with. Can you elaborate?
SHAYKH HISHAM: When you mentioned that they are not physically there, I felt tajalli, goosebumps on myself. That tajalli is still there (from the whirling here before). Can you ask the question again?
INTERVIEWER: When they begin the bowing, this is a unique focus they have, but some people just see the outward, specifically the "ruku`" aspect of that. Can you explain?
SHAYKH HISHAM: What do you do to show respect? You bow. What do you do if a janazah procession passes by? You read Fatihah or you bow. So that is respect, not worship, not sajdah; sajdah is for Allah (swt). That depends on how much the whirler is connected with the shaykh or with Prophet (s) or with the Divine Presence at that time, So out of feeling the Presence of Allah or Prophet, he bows out of respect. It is not as `ibaadah. No, it is out of respect. There are sultans in Muslim countries. What do people do (when they meet them or see them)? They bend on their knees, up to today.
INTERVIEWER: When I was in England, to see the Queen I was told how to behave. And they bow, it is very prescriptive. Obviously we have to honor the Royal Family, but it is not like we give to someone like yourself or to Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi, or people who are connected to Allah (swt).
SHAYKH HISHAM: That bow (of the whirler) is not even for the shaykh, but for the divine relationship he built with the shaykh. In that moment it is for the manifestation of the beauty of the Divine Presence. The shaykh does not even expect you to bow. Let us go back to what is important. When Sayyidina Jalaluddin Rumi (q) was in a trance of the Divine Presence, in his dhikr, in the strong appearance he was seeing, he was like when you see electrons circumambulating around the center. It is like an atom with electrons around it.
INTERVIEWER: We need something physical we can contemplate.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Yes, scientists find three billion cells in the human being, and every cell has its armies to protect from any attack from outside, like from viruses. So Allah (swt) did not create something so easy, it is complicated. When an airplane flies with turbine, it goes up. Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi (q) was in that state of purity; his soul was rising, taking his body up. There was no more gravity and he is rising up.
INTERVIEWER: He was levitating.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Yes. The reality of Sayyidina Jalaluddin Rumi (q) is not whirling and standing on a floor, no. The mureeds rise up to his level, and whatever level he wants he can reach.
INTERVIEWER: With his followers he was rising up. Perhaps we can say that the state he achieved is of height, that gives him physical height as well.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Yes. What we see today is only the preliminary part of it. It is preparing for it, but they are not yet to that. The reality is to lift up.
INTERVIEWER: Yes. In the western world, we see whirling has become part and parcel of tourist events; you see that in the tourist culture in Turkey. Even in photos we see the physical way of the whirler standing with his hand out, receiving blessing from Allah (swt) and passing it down to Earth. We need as the Muslim ummah to revive what Jalaluddin Rumi stood for. He has even become the most popular poet in the US.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Yes, he has become popular, because there is a spiritual vacuum today and a need in human life to fill spiritual feelings. Today we pray and, I don’t like to say, it is like robots. There is vacuum of spirituality. The west is looking for spirituality; it is why they come to Islam, not to take five prayers. They say, "Church gives one prayer on Sunday and Islam gives us five times a day!" But because poetry and arts and movement gives something spiritual to feel. That is why they are running to Jalaluddin Rumi and they are doing whirling, even some non-Muslims; they want to feel it. Everyone has something they want to share and bring out. With my respect to `ulama and scholars, they are very good as Ahlu’s-Sunnah wa’l-Jama`ah, my suggestion is that you have to give the youth a chance to express themselves through movement. That's why they go to discos. Give them an alternative in Islam.
INTERVIEWER: It is using movement to remember Allah (swt). You’re saying this movement is a natural part of being human.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Yes, that is true, that is why in the west they didn't find that movement in Hinduism, Buddhism, or Christianity. You know in Christianity it is dancing now. And they found it only in Mawlana Jalauddin Rumi's whirling! They found it and they understand it. And you have "Rumi concerts" where are whirling, men on one side and women on the other, and sometimes even mixed whirling, although it is not accepted in Islam, but it will bring Islam on the tongues of people in the west. Many things come through Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi (q).
INTERVIEWER: We see the name of Rumi is fashionable, and they have even a "Rumi Bar" with whirling going on, as well. Obviously they have taken to this due to a spiritual void. Is there not danger of stepping over a boundary of Shari`ah and using for their own gain?
SHAYKH HISHAM: I don’t think Muslims will be affected by what others are doing. People copy, so you see people copy things from Islam and then put their specific religion and say, "We are this or that." We cannot control anyone, but our duty is to keep it as Islam, as it really is, and not to go where they go in the west. When they read, it might from ten-thousand, ten will come to Islam. There is no loss there. “If one person be guided to Islam, it is better than the whole world." So Jalaluddin Rumi in his grave is bringing people to Islam! So do whirling as much as you like!
INTERVIEWER: You touch on a plea to re-engage our youth, not bringing negative, but regarding Ahlu’l-Sunnah wa’l-Jama`ah, you have the likes of HRH Prince Charles attending an event with you. You work with youth, so its not all about your hard work. This is an international channel and we are showing this in other countries, but we have local issues, that people are becoming extreme. What can tasawwuf and Sufis in general offer that wayward group of people to bring them to the mainstream?
SHAYKH HISHAM: Tasawwuf can bring everyone from radicalism or extremism, and de-radicalize them, if governments will listen. Unfortunately, I met with many officials and they think the only ones who can bring extremists out of extremism and back to normal life are the ones that brought them to extremism. So (they believe) Salafis can bring Salafis out of extremism, Hizbullah can bring Hizbullah, and it is not going to work like that. Ahlu’s-Sunnah wa’l-Jama`ah has to stand up! It is full of moral excellence, adab an-nabi, the best character of Prophet (s). So what do our youngsters want? They want someone to teach akhlaaq an-Nabi (s). If you touch on that subject, you can affect lot of people. We met a lot of street people and brought them back through what we call tasawwuf and our hadrah movement, through qaseeda on Prophet (s), and lectures, and telling them to entertain themselves through drumming and qasaa'id.It gives them something positive to do. Unfortunately, the majority of Muslims don’t offer our Muslim youth anything but radicalism. How you can solve that problem?
INTERVIEWER: How to bring them, give them something to bring them back in the fold.
SHAYKH HISHAM: That may prevent; in Arabic it is mana`, to stop something from happening. You can't work in that way. You have to speak to masses. They want to go one-to-one but it never ends, because there are millions of Muslim youth. You must have a shaykh that can speak to masses, such as the pirs of Pakistan or Kashmir or of Arab countries or Africa. You have pirs that speak to ten-thousand people, then ten-thousand can change completely, convert back (to extremism)! You know what is happening today in universities? Since Salafis are called to bring them back to non-extremism, they are actually bringing them to Salafism and extremism! So we lose another generation, and we have to take them back.
INTERVIEWER: Thank you, that is subject very close to my heart and yours. And I love this explanation of the whirling, some have never experienced it. I am very grateful and ask you to close with Fatihah and du`a. This program is dedicated to Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi and all our mashaykh and those who propagate this Way.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Fatihah. Allahuma ija`al awwaala sannatina haadha salaahun wa awsatahu falaahan wa aakhirahu najaahan.
Allahuma ija`al awwalahu rahmatan wa awsatahu ni`matan wa aakhirahum takreematan wa maghfirah.
Alhamdulillahi'lladhee tawada`a kulla shayin li `azhamatihi wa dalla kulla shayin li-`izzatihi wa khada` kulla shayin li-mulkih was-taslama kulla shayin li-qudratih,wAlhamdulillahi'lladhee sakana kulla shayin li-haybatih wa azhara kulli shayin li-hikmatihi wa tasaaghara kulla shayin li-kibriee'aa'uh.
allahuma ayqadna fee ahabbi sa`ati ilayka ya wadood.
This is one of best stations promoting Ahlu’l-Sunnah wa’l-Jama`ah and traditional Islam, and we ask Allah to guide us to what is best. Bi hurmati 'l-habeeb, bi hurmati 'l-Fatihah.
INTERVIEWER: We have had a meeting and a formal discussion this afternoon with Shaykh Hisham Kabbani. My last words to you is that we have had the details about dhikr, etc. and we see that knowledge of a true shaykh is not limited to Qur'an and sunnah. But as we see, his knowledge that we heard now, is related to Heavens and constellations. You heard the discussion about metaphysics, the movement. Fantastic. I refer you to two websites: you can get lectures of this tariqat, all available on sufilive.com. Also, for more on the brothers we saw before whirling, see shifameditation.com. I used the word “whirling,” but as you heard the shaykh say, it is all about meditation and tafakkur and contemplation. So sufilive.com and shifameditation.com.
This is a special program in tribute to Mawlana Jalaluddin Rumi (q). As-salam alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.
SHAYKH HISHAM: Wa alaykum salaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.